Thank you for walking through those studies. It's more reminders of how backwards and inverted this world is (and that sadly women are vulnerable to this bias against other women too).
I do think Kamala Harris, so far, has been really, really good at this.
"For women, it’s not enough to do it backwards and in high heels, à la Ginger Rogers. You also have to do it with a smile on your face, reassuring everyone you’re unthreatening and convivial. You have to be supremely competent; and you have to somehow temper the perception that you’re a bitch in being so."
The first woman president will definitely have to do all of that, and she seems acutely aware of it (and perhaps her experiences specifically as a woman of color have helped prepare her for it). If she manages to win, hopefully that monumental event will, over time, help soften the glass ceiling some for the women who follow her.
The one thing that worries me is the race seems to keep defaulting to voters are upset about the economy, and remain stubbornly convinced that Trump is "better" on it. If it weren't for that I'd be really confident in her chances. Ironically, when Hillary lost in 2016, pundits talked about 'economic anxiety' when it was really just misogyny and racism. This time, if Kamala loses, it might be attributed to misogyny and racism when it actually IS economic anxiety. The universe can be cruel.
Kate, thank you for writing about women having to pay - with abuse - for their successes. As always, I appreciate your essay about this subject which was clear, direct, on-point, and candid. Time after time you energize me by writing on meaningful subjects that I have not considered, recently or ever. You remain my North Star!
I hope the subscription model makes it easier for KM to write more books, that’s why I subscribed. Of course I’d love more frequent posts, but the books (the hardcover versions) are worth their weight in gold and I want to do what I can to support future books.
I may have missed this, but do you know of a time dependence for the effect you're describing? Is the assessment of a qualified woman challenging to take on a traditionally masculine authority role as shrill, domineering, etc usually automatic or does it take time for a narrative to set in? I ask because in Harris's case, the widely accepted view is that Trump did a terrible job and Harris completely won the debate. Jokes and memes are already working against Trump. I'd like (desperately) to think the instant misogyny just wasn't there for most people, and there's a lot of pro-Harris narrative momentum to maybe hopefully protect her against the misogynist interpretation of her performance from setting in.
I'm 61. I've been "confused" all my life. Am I the smart, educated, insightful, task focused, assertive, competent problem solver I think I am, or am I the tactless, aggressive, negative, angry, know it all, I'm labeled? When I asked a therapist this, he put that I have a personality disorder in my chart and said I incorrectly believed men and women were treated differently at work and by society. I have to "tut tut" and shake my head when non-binary GenZers believe that misogamy doesn't exist and if discrimination does exist, it won't touch them since they aren't "female." I've paid a price for being true to myself and never learning to pretend I'm dumb. But I've only recently empowered myself to say, "I'm a boomer and I know stuff."
Your article brought me back to reality, ugh & sadly. To think that a masterful performance by a woman (“Next President of the United States, Kamala Harris!”) would turn people off is mind blowing. Naturally D.Trump says “I won.” Not sure what to do to help? Troll X/Twitter blasting people who re-tweet propaganda and falsehoods? If anything, social media is bringing out public opinions as much as voting (50/50 ugliness versus truth). Good luck making a few extra bucks here. I bought Down Girl & Entitled interests me. Fat phobia should, I guess, but body dysphoria’s really heavy.
It’s interesting that Hilary Clinton’s sense of competence appeared to play against her in 2016, and how women are “damned if they do, and damned if they don’t” in regard to competence.
While I fully accept your reasons for going paid, I’m nevertheless disappointed as it will mean yours is yet another Substack I can’t comment on. I’m not a hardship case, but I read more than I can afford to subscribe to, and have already paid several creators for the privilege of commenting.
Holy shit! I was reading this and it finally clicked that this is why my 60+YOM AVP was being such a pedantic fool yesterday. He came for me hard with a "should always" do some completely subjective bullshit too. Yesterday must've been a rough day for old white men. Le sigh,le tears.
Politics is a confrontational field. Be good at confronting people and indeed the "cold bitch" stigma comes. But is it also true of other male-dominated fields that are not confrontational? That don't have this air of relentless competition? Say, architecture or building robots?
Great question. If you look at the first study above, it looked like it applied in male-dominated fields only, but not necessarily confrontational ones.
I absolutely love your work (and have bought all your books), but as an academic in a developing country, the annual subscription rate is a bit steep for me. I could pay half if there's some way for me to do that with a discount code, for instance.
Is there any other 'primer' that can be used to lessen the bias in this instance besides a woman being a biological mother? Just thinking about the studies that have shown how race bias can be lessened significantly & wondering if there is some lead in/introduction that can be used by women in traditionally male fields to lessen the bias they experience. Would be good if there was some way to 'set the stage' or 'level the playing field' with some sort of primer or positive association . . . and now I'm thinking of the Huberman Lab podcast that talks about how judges are more lenient after lunch & wishing it could be as easy as making sure people aren't hungry when they are judging women vying with men for traditionally male roles & positions of power. Can be as easy as making people aware of the bias & asking them to check themselves? 'Blind' studies have been done that clearly demonstrate bias, have studies been done w/ people who are made aware of the gender biases & asked to keep this in mind as they 'assess' female & male competency & preferences?
Thank you for walking through those studies. It's more reminders of how backwards and inverted this world is (and that sadly women are vulnerable to this bias against other women too).
I do think Kamala Harris, so far, has been really, really good at this.
"For women, it’s not enough to do it backwards and in high heels, à la Ginger Rogers. You also have to do it with a smile on your face, reassuring everyone you’re unthreatening and convivial. You have to be supremely competent; and you have to somehow temper the perception that you’re a bitch in being so."
The first woman president will definitely have to do all of that, and she seems acutely aware of it (and perhaps her experiences specifically as a woman of color have helped prepare her for it). If she manages to win, hopefully that monumental event will, over time, help soften the glass ceiling some for the women who follow her.
The one thing that worries me is the race seems to keep defaulting to voters are upset about the economy, and remain stubbornly convinced that Trump is "better" on it. If it weren't for that I'd be really confident in her chances. Ironically, when Hillary lost in 2016, pundits talked about 'economic anxiety' when it was really just misogyny and racism. This time, if Kamala loses, it might be attributed to misogyny and racism when it actually IS economic anxiety. The universe can be cruel.
Kate, thank you for writing about women having to pay - with abuse - for their successes. As always, I appreciate your essay about this subject which was clear, direct, on-point, and candid. Time after time you energize me by writing on meaningful subjects that I have not considered, recently or ever. You remain my North Star!
I hope the subscription model makes it easier for KM to write more books, that’s why I subscribed. Of course I’d love more frequent posts, but the books (the hardcover versions) are worth their weight in gold and I want to do what I can to support future books.
🙏❤️
"Himpathy", Nice one!
I may have missed this, but do you know of a time dependence for the effect you're describing? Is the assessment of a qualified woman challenging to take on a traditionally masculine authority role as shrill, domineering, etc usually automatic or does it take time for a narrative to set in? I ask because in Harris's case, the widely accepted view is that Trump did a terrible job and Harris completely won the debate. Jokes and memes are already working against Trump. I'd like (desperately) to think the instant misogyny just wasn't there for most people, and there's a lot of pro-Harris narrative momentum to maybe hopefully protect her against the misogynist interpretation of her performance from setting in.
Honestly I think we're already seeing it in the commentary above, and e.g., the roughly half of undecided voters who somehow thought Harris didn't win the debate. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/11/us/politics/undecided-voters-react-debate.html
ugh.
See also Greg Watson, below. Sigh
I'm 61. I've been "confused" all my life. Am I the smart, educated, insightful, task focused, assertive, competent problem solver I think I am, or am I the tactless, aggressive, negative, angry, know it all, I'm labeled? When I asked a therapist this, he put that I have a personality disorder in my chart and said I incorrectly believed men and women were treated differently at work and by society. I have to "tut tut" and shake my head when non-binary GenZers believe that misogamy doesn't exist and if discrimination does exist, it won't touch them since they aren't "female." I've paid a price for being true to myself and never learning to pretend I'm dumb. But I've only recently empowered myself to say, "I'm a boomer and I know stuff."
That therapist shouldn't be allowed to practice!
Your article brought me back to reality, ugh & sadly. To think that a masterful performance by a woman (“Next President of the United States, Kamala Harris!”) would turn people off is mind blowing. Naturally D.Trump says “I won.” Not sure what to do to help? Troll X/Twitter blasting people who re-tweet propaganda and falsehoods? If anything, social media is bringing out public opinions as much as voting (50/50 ugliness versus truth). Good luck making a few extra bucks here. I bought Down Girl & Entitled interests me. Fat phobia should, I guess, but body dysphoria’s really heavy.
It’s interesting that Hilary Clinton’s sense of competence appeared to play against her in 2016, and how women are “damned if they do, and damned if they don’t” in regard to competence.
While I fully accept your reasons for going paid, I’m nevertheless disappointed as it will mean yours is yet another Substack I can’t comment on. I’m not a hardship case, but I read more than I can afford to subscribe to, and have already paid several creators for the privilege of commenting.
Well said. And, I'm delighted you're turning on paid subscriptions. I subscribed!
Do you have an email we can write to? I guess messages can only be sent in Substack if you get the app.
Sure do! Kate dot manne at gmail dot com
Holy shit! I was reading this and it finally clicked that this is why my 60+YOM AVP was being such a pedantic fool yesterday. He came for me hard with a "should always" do some completely subjective bullshit too. Yesterday must've been a rough day for old white men. Le sigh,le tears.
Interesting Sad and a bit scary. Change often is.
Politics is a confrontational field. Be good at confronting people and indeed the "cold bitch" stigma comes. But is it also true of other male-dominated fields that are not confrontational? That don't have this air of relentless competition? Say, architecture or building robots?
Great question. If you look at the first study above, it looked like it applied in male-dominated fields only, but not necessarily confrontational ones.
Always brilliant and a pleasure to pay for a subscription, Kate. Looking forward to your proceeding posts.
I absolutely love your work (and have bought all your books), but as an academic in a developing country, the annual subscription rate is a bit steep for me. I could pay half if there's some way for me to do that with a discount code, for instance.
Send me a line and happy to comp! ❤️
Is there any other 'primer' that can be used to lessen the bias in this instance besides a woman being a biological mother? Just thinking about the studies that have shown how race bias can be lessened significantly & wondering if there is some lead in/introduction that can be used by women in traditionally male fields to lessen the bias they experience. Would be good if there was some way to 'set the stage' or 'level the playing field' with some sort of primer or positive association . . . and now I'm thinking of the Huberman Lab podcast that talks about how judges are more lenient after lunch & wishing it could be as easy as making sure people aren't hungry when they are judging women vying with men for traditionally male roles & positions of power. Can be as easy as making people aware of the bias & asking them to check themselves? 'Blind' studies have been done that clearly demonstrate bias, have studies been done w/ people who are made aware of the gender biases & asked to keep this in mind as they 'assess' female & male competency & preferences?
Thanks for sharing your insight & knowledge!