An interview with the creators of the extraordinary podcast that teaches us new lessons about sexual abuse, the power of adults over children, and what it means to advocate for victims.
Wow. I thought about the dilemma, what do you do about the people who don’t care?
I think the people who do care have to care more, louder, and get in the faces of the ones who don’t. The active bystanders have to be more active, and to hell with all the people who DGAF about victims.
I think there's also something to navigate in people telling themselves that they care, BUT. But what if they're wrong, what if there are consequences for intervening, what about keeping up a sense of normalcy. I think that rearranging that sense of propriety is partly a matter of caring loudly, of making silence unacceptable. But I think there's a way that so many people feel precarious in various ways -- I think we need to figure out how to mitigate those consequences, or the perception that people have to bear those consequences alone.
It's not only a part of not calling out sexual assault, it's why mass actions are so hard to orchestrate in the US. The individualism of the US both enables "they brought it on themselves" and "I've got to watch my own back first".
The more evidence given about this horrendous issue the better. And I deeply appreciate learning about this important podcast. 🙏🏼
This issue (adult sexual abuse of students) is especially rampant in music schools, conservatories and summer music programs. These institutions put hagiographic cultural fencing around studio teachers who have unique, high pressure power over students. Administration then refuses to take complaints seriously because these studio faculty are a.) the gateway to the student’s entire career (it’s a guild) and b.) are the basis of the institution’s prestige. This new documentary is naming the problem rampant in this high stakes arena…and currently touring, in search of distribution.
And no, I have zero connection to this project…but know the core story driving the project via an associate of Lara’s brother, who is himself a 1st-tier American musician and teacher.
I only listened to the last few episodes and admire everything about what was done early on and then in the follow up to the stories. Fantastic journalism. The only thing I missed and wondered about is the role of the Teachers Union. (And maybe this was talked about in an earlier episode that I haven’t listened to). The new superintendent seemed to me to be saying I can’t follow my own instincts because of all the contractual protections that put the schools at risk if we act too aggressively. Has the WA union (who undoubtedly do many good things) spoken to the issue? Some similarities perhaps to police unions who end up on the wrong side of many human rights issues. What is the right way to shine a light on the dark side of those contracts?
Thank you so much for interviewing these amazing ladies — I just finished the podcast yesterday, and I was astounded up until the very last episode. One of the more shocking moments was hearing the current Seattle Public Schools Superintendent share his take on how to fix the problem. I was so astounded by how blasé he was, and I got the sense he was just "throwing up his hands," so to speak. It really underscored just how deeply rooted these patterns are in the system. Isolde is a true hero, and I too marveled at her tenacity and bravery as a young teen, standing up to Mr. Hudson in his office and refusing to back down. This was such an important story, and her final words in the last episode ring true: journalists like her can provide us with the evidence, but it's up to us to stand up, speak out, advocate for victims and survivors, and hold the adults in the room accountable.
I didn’t hear him as blasé at all. I do think as someone leading an institution that needs to negotiate with a powerful union, he was trying to explain some of the constraints that affect how he acts.
Thank you for sharing your input and perspective! I suppose I see your point and acknowledge the red tape that affects his ability to hold people accountable. I suppose it was disheartening more than anything. I just wish there weren’t “constraints” that prevented people who commit heinous, abusive acts against children from being held accountable. :(
I appreciated this exploration even though the subject matter is horrific in that is points out a large problem for humans in our world today (and maybe always).
The "room" for evil to flourish in a mind that can be conditioned to believe it's good is terrifyingly large.
I'm reminded of Susanna Siegel's work (and many others) on the intersection of Predictive Processing and Epistemology.
As Oliver Sacks (who "hallucinated" some of his own research) said, "we hallucinate reality."
The plasticity of the child's mind is wondrous and terrifying all at the same time. It can learn so much. It's vital it learns the right things.
As a Catholic student and alter boy in the 1960's we all viewed the "Priest" as god. Nothing ever happened to me, but in hindsight - I would not have questioned "godly" guidance then. No belief in religion for me since I started asking questions in 6th grade.
Raised two daughters to be aware and proud to state that they are.
Power is scary when wielded over the weak - truly a despicable display of the "Adult" in the room. Off to watch.
Kate, I've been focused on the war--reading, collating, and writing in my own substack--that I just read this, late on Saturday afternoon. It's devastating. Wow. Thank you for writing this, and sharing the words of Isolde and Jeannie.
KM wrote: "But if people don’t care, then I do not know, as a philosopher, the fix for that."
I was surprised to read this because philosophy, by that name, in the European tradition, began with Socrates caring about wisdom, what the god's words meant, the state of one's soul when others appeared not to. He expressed his care by talking with and questioning anyone who claimed to care about something: education, virtue, piety, justice. ***Caring for moral goods is a primary practice of philosophy and necessarily communal and often with people who seem not to care.***
If "fix" means addressing systemic failure (since, as Isolde remarked, there will always be individuals who aim to exploit or dominate others), then the practice of philosophy may be especially helpful. O&O wrote "I think the people who do care have to care more, louder, and get in the faces of the ones who don’t": this sounds Socratic to me. And to be even more practical about how to fix a lack of care, check out Jane McAlevey on organizing* (as opposed to mobilizing)--it requires careful and thoughtful conversations about what people care about, which also sounds Socratic.
*McAlevey is known as a labor organizer, but she warned against viewing either workplace or community is isolation. Certainly the issues addressed here need to be addressed in both workplace and community, and doing so simultaneously would be especially effective.
Wow. I thought about the dilemma, what do you do about the people who don’t care?
I think the people who do care have to care more, louder, and get in the faces of the ones who don’t. The active bystanders have to be more active, and to hell with all the people who DGAF about victims.
I think there's also something to navigate in people telling themselves that they care, BUT. But what if they're wrong, what if there are consequences for intervening, what about keeping up a sense of normalcy. I think that rearranging that sense of propriety is partly a matter of caring loudly, of making silence unacceptable. But I think there's a way that so many people feel precarious in various ways -- I think we need to figure out how to mitigate those consequences, or the perception that people have to bear those consequences alone.
It's not only a part of not calling out sexual assault, it's why mass actions are so hard to orchestrate in the US. The individualism of the US both enables "they brought it on themselves" and "I've got to watch my own back first".
The more evidence given about this horrendous issue the better. And I deeply appreciate learning about this important podcast. 🙏🏼
This issue (adult sexual abuse of students) is especially rampant in music schools, conservatories and summer music programs. These institutions put hagiographic cultural fencing around studio teachers who have unique, high pressure power over students. Administration then refuses to take complaints seriously because these studio faculty are a.) the gateway to the student’s entire career (it’s a guild) and b.) are the basis of the institution’s prestige. This new documentary is naming the problem rampant in this high stakes arena…and currently touring, in search of distribution.
And no, I have zero connection to this project…but know the core story driving the project via an associate of Lara’s brother, who is himself a 1st-tier American musician and teacher.
https://youtu.be/CMxv1Phxxw4?si=h2wj93gq2auBpjBv
I listened to all 7 episodes back to back. Just a stunning piece of journalism.
I only listened to the last few episodes and admire everything about what was done early on and then in the follow up to the stories. Fantastic journalism. The only thing I missed and wondered about is the role of the Teachers Union. (And maybe this was talked about in an earlier episode that I haven’t listened to). The new superintendent seemed to me to be saying I can’t follow my own instincts because of all the contractual protections that put the schools at risk if we act too aggressively. Has the WA union (who undoubtedly do many good things) spoken to the issue? Some similarities perhaps to police unions who end up on the wrong side of many human rights issues. What is the right way to shine a light on the dark side of those contracts?
Thank you so much for interviewing these amazing ladies — I just finished the podcast yesterday, and I was astounded up until the very last episode. One of the more shocking moments was hearing the current Seattle Public Schools Superintendent share his take on how to fix the problem. I was so astounded by how blasé he was, and I got the sense he was just "throwing up his hands," so to speak. It really underscored just how deeply rooted these patterns are in the system. Isolde is a true hero, and I too marveled at her tenacity and bravery as a young teen, standing up to Mr. Hudson in his office and refusing to back down. This was such an important story, and her final words in the last episode ring true: journalists like her can provide us with the evidence, but it's up to us to stand up, speak out, advocate for victims and survivors, and hold the adults in the room accountable.
I didn’t hear him as blasé at all. I do think as someone leading an institution that needs to negotiate with a powerful union, he was trying to explain some of the constraints that affect how he acts.
Thank you for sharing your input and perspective! I suppose I see your point and acknowledge the red tape that affects his ability to hold people accountable. I suppose it was disheartening more than anything. I just wish there weren’t “constraints” that prevented people who commit heinous, abusive acts against children from being held accountable. :(
I appreciated this exploration even though the subject matter is horrific in that is points out a large problem for humans in our world today (and maybe always).
The "room" for evil to flourish in a mind that can be conditioned to believe it's good is terrifyingly large.
I'm reminded of Susanna Siegel's work (and many others) on the intersection of Predictive Processing and Epistemology.
As Oliver Sacks (who "hallucinated" some of his own research) said, "we hallucinate reality."
The plasticity of the child's mind is wondrous and terrifying all at the same time. It can learn so much. It's vital it learns the right things.
Thank you Isolde, Jeanine and Kate,
It is a power thing, IMHO.
As a Catholic student and alter boy in the 1960's we all viewed the "Priest" as god. Nothing ever happened to me, but in hindsight - I would not have questioned "godly" guidance then. No belief in religion for me since I started asking questions in 6th grade.
Raised two daughters to be aware and proud to state that they are.
Power is scary when wielded over the weak - truly a despicable display of the "Adult" in the room. Off to watch.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. What amazing journalism! What amazing young people! Our collective failure is so clear.
If anything needs to go viral & become mandatory listening *especially* by third parties - it’s this!
Going to listen to their podcast this weekend. The discourse about third parties is so important.
Kate, I've been focused on the war--reading, collating, and writing in my own substack--that I just read this, late on Saturday afternoon. It's devastating. Wow. Thank you for writing this, and sharing the words of Isolde and Jeannie.
This is such a powerful podcast -- thank you for the interview!
KM wrote: "But if people don’t care, then I do not know, as a philosopher, the fix for that."
I was surprised to read this because philosophy, by that name, in the European tradition, began with Socrates caring about wisdom, what the god's words meant, the state of one's soul when others appeared not to. He expressed his care by talking with and questioning anyone who claimed to care about something: education, virtue, piety, justice. ***Caring for moral goods is a primary practice of philosophy and necessarily communal and often with people who seem not to care.***
If "fix" means addressing systemic failure (since, as Isolde remarked, there will always be individuals who aim to exploit or dominate others), then the practice of philosophy may be especially helpful. O&O wrote "I think the people who do care have to care more, louder, and get in the faces of the ones who don’t": this sounds Socratic to me. And to be even more practical about how to fix a lack of care, check out Jane McAlevey on organizing* (as opposed to mobilizing)--it requires careful and thoughtful conversations about what people care about, which also sounds Socratic.
*McAlevey is known as a labor organizer, but she warned against viewing either workplace or community is isolation. Certainly the issues addressed here need to be addressed in both workplace and community, and doing so simultaneously would be especially effective.