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i hate how he can so confidently use the term “consensual” without any evidence. there is literally no reason for him to think that beyond his entitlement.

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This is exactly right and perfectly put. Thank you!

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Aug 29, 2023Liked by Kate Manne

Something like this also steals something which is irrecoverable: The unalloyed joy of winning a World Cup!! This act will always be a blemish on the memories the players will have of their moment in the sun.

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Exactly. It is maddening. Yet again, somehow, it's all about the men.

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Aug 29, 2023Liked by Kate Manne

I’m struck by the Karl-Heinz Rummenigge quote: “absolutely okay.” As in: ‘This was *clearly* and *definitively* just barely over the line.’

It’s remarkable to hear so much certainty in what they acknowledge moments later is a moral grey area. (The original German was “absolut okay”----an absolute certainty of German certainty followed by a casual Englishism.)

The Yahoo article quotes another German soccer player: “Another German World Cup winner, Lothar Matthaus, held a similar view saying: ‘You can kiss. These are emotions, love, passion, bliss. I have nothing against such pictures, even if it is the president of the association.’

“‘Maybe you went a bit too far. For me it’s not a discussion and it’s okay.’”

Similar logic: Yes, it’s definitely a bit too far. But it’s definitively only a little bit too far.

It’s like the VAR of sexual assault.

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That is such a good point. Yet more evidence it's about defending these men no matter what rather than responding justly to the behavior. Gah!

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Thank you for this! Especially saddened by the Spain soccer team’s glory and celebration being taken away and the psychic pain of this. I love your writing!

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Thank you so much! And oof, likewise; I'm so sad and angry about this

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Aug 29, 2023Liked by Kate Manne

Thank you so much for this, Kate. Once again, you've said exactly what needed to be said. I watched the last half-hour or so of the final women's World Cup football/soccer match and, first, was struck by the near absence of women among the coaches for Spain. (I saw only one person who presented as a woman, in contrast with the US, whose head coach and many of the others presented as women.) Then, I was surprised to see, during the awards ceremony, that virtually all of the male officials hugged the women on the Spanish team. But I was shocked to see Rubiales grab Hermosa and pull her in for a full-on kiss on her mouth. I don't recall hearing any commentary about this at the time (but I may have been watching it on Telemundo by then). I hadn't followed any media coverage of this since then, so was unaware of any follow-up till I read your post.

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Thank you so much, Susan. It was such a shocking moment. And now the gaslighting.... ugh. I'm so sad and angry

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CNBC covered the story 12 days ago. They were not the first news outlet to do so. The assault occurred on August 20th.

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Aug 29, 2023Liked by Kate Manne

Spot on!!!

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🙏❤️

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+1M, Kate.

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🙏❤️

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genuine question here.. why are everyone acting as if they've never made a mistake. A politician steals and no! A feminist gets hurt its murder. It sounds like american and culture cancelling. is this fair? Or is it because he's a man? If a woman did the same thing would the same happen? Crazy to me

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Aug 31, 2023·edited Aug 31, 2023

There is no question (in my mind) that what Luis Rubiales did is assault. There is no question that women are serially assaulted. My issue is with the strict gendered language of assault. Women can be and sometimes are sexual predators too. The very notion that rape (as well as sexual assault) is defined by penetration is a gendered definition (is sexual arousal the same as intent? Is one a necessary condition for the other? If an individual is aroused but hasn't given consent, is it still rape? Yes, to that last one). It nullifies the traumatic experiences of a large number of men who have been victims of female sexual predators. The Bureau of Justice Statistics has studied male victims of sexual assault (it happens... gah) and estimates that 46% of them reported a female perpetrator. This is not to negate the experiences of countless women. It is intended to provide some context and acknowledge the neglected experiences of male victims.

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"This is not to negate the experiences of countless women." And yet, that is exactly what you are doing with your whataboutery.

This is NOT the space where we are acknowledging male victims; that's not to say we don't clearly acknowledge they exist, they certainly do, it's simply that we are allowed to discuss the FAR GREATER incidence of violence against women, and speaking specifically to one particular assault seen around the world, without always having to mention.... "what about the men", or "men too", or "not all men". You clearly didn't get part of the gist of that essay where this unfortunate incident has now made the women's victory ALL ABOUT THE MEN.

Dr. Manne specializes in moral philosophy and psychology, feminist and social philosophy. So if you're here, understand the space you're in.

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Sep 4, 2023·edited Sep 4, 2023

The "FAR GREATER" you refer to, isn't that much far greater. And that's the point you missed entirely. My post's suggestion that the debate is highly gendered moves it from a female / male dichotomy towards an expanded discourse that avoids "what-about-ism."

As far as the caveats "not all men," I would hope they would be there, because their absence would be dishonest. There is also disingenuity in your citing a single statement by me and ignoring others to score a cheap point. You might have wanted to add: "There is no question that women are serially assaulted," or "There is no question (in my mind) that what Luis Rubiales did is assault." But you didn't and I wonder why. Instead, you embarked on a singular mission to take me down.

I'll add, "owning" a social media space turns the word "social" into a misnomer. If Dr. Manne is making an academic argument, she should be prepared for a counterpoint. That's academia for you. If she isn't, perhaps the world of academia isn't for her. Just a thought about "understanding" (that condescending word) social space.

I'm also not all that impressed by academic "specialties." I spent a lot of time in the academic world until I came to understand just how toxic it is and how meaningless the "specialities" of so many academics are. "Dr." Jordan Peterson (a loathsome man) can make similar claims to academic "specialties," but he is a dangerous charlatan. I'm not suggesting a parallel between Peterson and Dr. Manne. I am suggesting that academic titles are matters of paper and that it is okay to challenge academics. In fact, they should be challenged. It's called Socratic Dialogue and I don't believe in sacred Ivory Towers.

I am sorry you (apparently... I cannot know for sure) feel triggered. That is written with sincerity because I do not know your history. However, as someone who has been serially sexually assaulted, I too felt triggered and negated (you repeat the negation as an "angry yogi" -- an odd nick since I always thought yogis aren't supposed to feel anger -- in your post, and that's a problem). Now you know a little about my history.

Finally, is the BJS wrong? Does its study not fit the discourse? If not, why not?

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