What strikes me in this situation is how easily people who might consider themselves to be liberal instruments of change can turn into fierce protectors of a status quo when it's a status quo they have helped to define and within which they feel comfortable. Being unhappy with someone who, in Kate's words, "violated a minor- and largely arbitrary - social norm" is perhaps understandable. Attacking that person is inexcusable. I also note that some commenters have suggested that Glennon is "too sensitive" - a phrase long favored by bullies and misogynists.
Holy crap, I missed ALL of this. And thank goodness I'm not just now starting up a Substack, because I sure as shit turned on paid subscriptions as soon as I joined too.
Thank you for this. I’ve read much about what happened and followed along as it went down, horrified by what I saw. Lost in much of the dialogue is the fact that she imported her email list. So she didn’t just magically get all of those subscribers. I also believe that artists deserve to be paid for their work. Taylor Swift does and so does Glennon Doyle. The neat thing about this platform is that it opens up that opportunity to so many more people (even as the platform itself is imperfect, as lots of folks have discussed the last few years). In her posts, she simply seemed excited to be here. How dare she. Thank you for this thoughtful analysis.
This is a must read. You illustrate exactly how women can contribute to misogyny, and of course that's because of your correct definition of what misogyny is, and isn't. And thank you for being candid about your own reaction, demonstrating that no one is immune. We would all benefit from your wise counsel of what to think about before expressing our opinions. It is disappointing that we are so far away from a world in which that consideration would be standard practice.
Just before I read this I was listening to Amy Poehler's interview with Quinta Brunson on Amy's new Good Hang podcast, and they talk about this exact thing, how women are expected to be very low key about their ambitions and drive and it's a bunch of bullshit and both are trying to challenge that "norm" in their own ways.
I’m newer to substack. Saw one video about her joining. Excited for a friendly space. And then saw the analysis to talk about the why and how of her leaving, including how it reflects on us. Thought this was good, insightful too…see link below
Capitalism, patriarchy, and misogyny — words that everyday humans aren’t thinking about per se as they just try to live their lives with some joy — certainly have us continually unwell and growingly disconnected in 2025
Very good analysis. Argues (convincingly) that it's not just about or was not necessarily misogyny or bullying that created the backlash but also unbridled capitalism, or 'mainly' it was the capitalism. I would say it was not an 'either/or', it was/is a combo of all abusive power structures w/ race, patriarchy & capitalism at the forefront. Abusive power structures are the root of the issue & until we decide to value ALL people (regardless of color of skin, race, gender, sexual identity, income level, level of 'education', etc) for the unique creation each of us is & if we continue to place profit over people (to borrow from Noam Chomsky) we are going to have abuse or at least neglect and we definitely need to stop idolizing the 'super rich' . . . at this point they seem pretty boring to me & more chained to their money & their egos than people living pay check to pay check & that makes me really happy i am not one of those super rich people - no thank you. I'm not talking about ALL super rich people, i'm talking about the super rich people who have no care for creating a better world, for preserving the life-sustaining abilities of our earth & for increasing social good.
Agree, thanks for the additional reflection and points. I think I would have been a social sciences major of some sort In a different past life. My sister had me read her Econ book called Winner Takes All Society back In The 90s. Always stuck with me when I thought about the forces that drive our decisions and notions of what a good life looks like or how we could fall into career paths of unconscious capitalism . Here’s a link to the executive summary. Technological advances and other things have this type of society on steroids in 2025 and its fallout in terms of decreased shared agency/community, growing poverty and stress a real experience in the US at minimum https://sobrief.com/books/the-winner-take-all-society
I had no idea this is what happened. I subscribe to her newsletter, and happily joined and paid for her substack as soon as she announced it. Honestly I've been eager to find a community of women who listen to her podcast and I was thrilled she was coming to Substack. How awful that this is what happened and led to her decision to shut it down.
Your assessment of how it went is really interesting and insightful - thanks.
I appreciate your work, Kate. I loved Down Girl and came to hear you on recommendation from Holly W.
And I see your thinking here, but honestly, where is this mob of disgust and hatred? I honestly didn’t/don’t see it. I saw one thoughtful critique from Holly Whitaker, which I agreed with (and was not even about Glennon, really), some “critique” notes that were so sugar sweet they bordered on pandering, and a few random “I feel anxious that Glennon is here, anyone else?” notes.
I posted a note that was more general and had to do with what Substack is turning into—a social media platform, which focuses on influencer / instagram like content—which depresses me because, as I said, I’ve learned I can’t be a writer and an influencer at the same time.
I think many writers, including myself, associate this type of “influencer” content with Glennon because of her very large presence elsewhere and how she has used those platforms in the past. She did not cause that here, obviously, but I think her arrival signaled some kind of tipping point for many. It’s not fair if she took the hit for that, but it also makes sense given her size and online footprint, and the somewhat cozy little culture here on Substack.
I genuinely didn’t see one shit post about her, but I obviously didn’t see everything.
Much, much more of what I saw were folks running to defend her, write letters for her, and a lot of hand-wringing about bullying and scarcity mindset and how dare women “take down women,” which, sure, but that seems reductive too, because late-stage capitalism is real, the pools of attention and money are not infinite, much as the manifesters would love us to believe 🤪. And when she left, all that noise went into a fever pitch.
Also, she didn’t acquire 220k subscribers, she brought a list over, like so many did (including myself).
I don’t think it’s quite correct to pin it all on misogyny, is what I’m saying. That may be part of it, but this seems much more complex and nuanced.
What would be the reaction if someone less…I don’t know…known for vulnerability, like Mel Robbins, showed up here? Or other big celebrities like Oprah? Taylor Swift? Brene Brown? Michelle O’Bama? I’m genuinely curious at what point it’s acceptable to have discourse about a woman, or a woman’s brand/enterprise without it being labeled misogyny? Is ALL critique of women that, or are there exceptions, and if so, what are they?
This is a lot of what I’ve been wrestling with this past week.
I am totally here for nuanced takes, very much including Holly's (I didn’t see your note). But I do think there was a lot of eye-rolling and lip-curling on notes. The alternative is also that Glennon Doyle is massively oversensitive. That doesn't strike me as charitable or all that likely given her years of experience doing social media.
Again, I didn’t see a lot of criticism. I believe you, but I didn’t see it myself.
I think she actually is pretty sensitive given all her work. And she “left” social media (twitter a year ago, IG a couple months ago; her profiles are there, but she’s not; they’ve likely been taken over by staff to continue to promote her work). I am guessing the sheer volume of discussion about her upon arrival didn’t feel great, and perhaps she was not expecting that, but I don’t know.
And, sorry, I published my comment on accident then edited it/added to it because I’m doing this on my phone! So there’s more there at the bottom I’m curious about.
I could never do twitter because it felt like being in a room where everyone was screaming at the same time! So, I don’t know. It all feels pretty bleak rn.
Thank you for writing this! I didn’t know this happened - I just knew that Glennon Doyle joined and left Substack quickly bc she said something like it was bad for her mental health. No wonder! Being mobbed and attacked on the internet would be bad for anyone’s mental health 😟😑
A thoughtful and nuanced take as always. And thanks for admitting your own discomfort - what often gets lost in demands for ideological purity is that we can have and interrogate our own reactions without broadcasting them to the internet. (A 21st Century spin on second thought, first action if you will.)
I only heard about the situation afterwards, but this essay and 15th Century Feminist's note that maybe this will encourage meaningful content moderation from Substack have been the best responses I've seen.
This is interesting to think about. I vowed not to read any more about this and then couldn’t resist a Kate Manne take. I saw lots of commentary about what people said to GD, and never saw any of the actual comments. Did they vanish with her? She’s an interesting mirror for our own fears, hopes and longings.
This is so interesting - I follow Glennon’s podcast but didn’t make the jump to her substack (I already have so many things to read). I didn’t know she was experiencing this BS. Thanks for bringing light to it!
Thanks for your excellent take on the Glennon Doyle situation. Having grown up in the progressive Bay Area, I’ve experienced kind and smart people policing others about social norm digressions. I don’t think they are aware of how passive-aggressive they sound. It drives me bananas!
The hate on Glennon Doyle is overkill. Guys like Freddie DeBoer, who I subscribe to, monetize their Substacks immediately. DeBoer faced no opposition, despite having been canceled and despite his pugnacious return to “edgy” commentary. That same privilege should be extended to women. They shouldn’t always have to be kind or sophisticated in order to have an audience.
This is a great article. I have no idea who Glennon is or what had happened until I read your article. Your article gives a needed perspective. Also the article KN posted up there which frames it as a capitalist backlash. It can be misogynistic & a backlash to wealth inequality as well, as a rich man likely would not get the same reaction. Breaking down the disgust reaction is very helpful as well & gives me something to think about.
What strikes me in this situation is how easily people who might consider themselves to be liberal instruments of change can turn into fierce protectors of a status quo when it's a status quo they have helped to define and within which they feel comfortable. Being unhappy with someone who, in Kate's words, "violated a minor- and largely arbitrary - social norm" is perhaps understandable. Attacking that person is inexcusable. I also note that some commenters have suggested that Glennon is "too sensitive" - a phrase long favored by bullies and misogynists.
Holy crap, I missed ALL of this. And thank goodness I'm not just now starting up a Substack, because I sure as shit turned on paid subscriptions as soon as I joined too.
Thank you for this. I’ve read much about what happened and followed along as it went down, horrified by what I saw. Lost in much of the dialogue is the fact that she imported her email list. So she didn’t just magically get all of those subscribers. I also believe that artists deserve to be paid for their work. Taylor Swift does and so does Glennon Doyle. The neat thing about this platform is that it opens up that opportunity to so many more people (even as the platform itself is imperfect, as lots of folks have discussed the last few years). In her posts, she simply seemed excited to be here. How dare she. Thank you for this thoughtful analysis.
This is a must read. You illustrate exactly how women can contribute to misogyny, and of course that's because of your correct definition of what misogyny is, and isn't. And thank you for being candid about your own reaction, demonstrating that no one is immune. We would all benefit from your wise counsel of what to think about before expressing our opinions. It is disappointing that we are so far away from a world in which that consideration would be standard practice.
Just before I read this I was listening to Amy Poehler's interview with Quinta Brunson on Amy's new Good Hang podcast, and they talk about this exact thing, how women are expected to be very low key about their ambitions and drive and it's a bunch of bullshit and both are trying to challenge that "norm" in their own ways.
I’m newer to substack. Saw one video about her joining. Excited for a friendly space. And then saw the analysis to talk about the why and how of her leaving, including how it reflects on us. Thought this was good, insightful too…see link below
Capitalism, patriarchy, and misogyny — words that everyday humans aren’t thinking about per se as they just try to live their lives with some joy — certainly have us continually unwell and growingly disconnected in 2025
@kirstenpowers
https://kirstenpowers.substack.com/p/its-not-really-about-glennon?r=4ncnv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
Very good analysis. Argues (convincingly) that it's not just about or was not necessarily misogyny or bullying that created the backlash but also unbridled capitalism, or 'mainly' it was the capitalism. I would say it was not an 'either/or', it was/is a combo of all abusive power structures w/ race, patriarchy & capitalism at the forefront. Abusive power structures are the root of the issue & until we decide to value ALL people (regardless of color of skin, race, gender, sexual identity, income level, level of 'education', etc) for the unique creation each of us is & if we continue to place profit over people (to borrow from Noam Chomsky) we are going to have abuse or at least neglect and we definitely need to stop idolizing the 'super rich' . . . at this point they seem pretty boring to me & more chained to their money & their egos than people living pay check to pay check & that makes me really happy i am not one of those super rich people - no thank you. I'm not talking about ALL super rich people, i'm talking about the super rich people who have no care for creating a better world, for preserving the life-sustaining abilities of our earth & for increasing social good.
Agree, thanks for the additional reflection and points. I think I would have been a social sciences major of some sort In a different past life. My sister had me read her Econ book called Winner Takes All Society back In The 90s. Always stuck with me when I thought about the forces that drive our decisions and notions of what a good life looks like or how we could fall into career paths of unconscious capitalism . Here’s a link to the executive summary. Technological advances and other things have this type of society on steroids in 2025 and its fallout in terms of decreased shared agency/community, growing poverty and stress a real experience in the US at minimum https://sobrief.com/books/the-winner-take-all-society
I had no idea this is what happened. I subscribe to her newsletter, and happily joined and paid for her substack as soon as she announced it. Honestly I've been eager to find a community of women who listen to her podcast and I was thrilled she was coming to Substack. How awful that this is what happened and led to her decision to shut it down.
Your assessment of how it went is really interesting and insightful - thanks.
I appreciate your work, Kate. I loved Down Girl and came to hear you on recommendation from Holly W.
And I see your thinking here, but honestly, where is this mob of disgust and hatred? I honestly didn’t/don’t see it. I saw one thoughtful critique from Holly Whitaker, which I agreed with (and was not even about Glennon, really), some “critique” notes that were so sugar sweet they bordered on pandering, and a few random “I feel anxious that Glennon is here, anyone else?” notes.
I posted a note that was more general and had to do with what Substack is turning into—a social media platform, which focuses on influencer / instagram like content—which depresses me because, as I said, I’ve learned I can’t be a writer and an influencer at the same time.
I think many writers, including myself, associate this type of “influencer” content with Glennon because of her very large presence elsewhere and how she has used those platforms in the past. She did not cause that here, obviously, but I think her arrival signaled some kind of tipping point for many. It’s not fair if she took the hit for that, but it also makes sense given her size and online footprint, and the somewhat cozy little culture here on Substack.
I genuinely didn’t see one shit post about her, but I obviously didn’t see everything.
Much, much more of what I saw were folks running to defend her, write letters for her, and a lot of hand-wringing about bullying and scarcity mindset and how dare women “take down women,” which, sure, but that seems reductive too, because late-stage capitalism is real, the pools of attention and money are not infinite, much as the manifesters would love us to believe 🤪. And when she left, all that noise went into a fever pitch.
Also, she didn’t acquire 220k subscribers, she brought a list over, like so many did (including myself).
I don’t think it’s quite correct to pin it all on misogyny, is what I’m saying. That may be part of it, but this seems much more complex and nuanced.
What would be the reaction if someone less…I don’t know…known for vulnerability, like Mel Robbins, showed up here? Or other big celebrities like Oprah? Taylor Swift? Brene Brown? Michelle O’Bama? I’m genuinely curious at what point it’s acceptable to have discourse about a woman, or a woman’s brand/enterprise without it being labeled misogyny? Is ALL critique of women that, or are there exceptions, and if so, what are they?
This is a lot of what I’ve been wrestling with this past week.
I am totally here for nuanced takes, very much including Holly's (I didn’t see your note). But I do think there was a lot of eye-rolling and lip-curling on notes. The alternative is also that Glennon Doyle is massively oversensitive. That doesn't strike me as charitable or all that likely given her years of experience doing social media.
Again, I didn’t see a lot of criticism. I believe you, but I didn’t see it myself.
I think she actually is pretty sensitive given all her work. And she “left” social media (twitter a year ago, IG a couple months ago; her profiles are there, but she’s not; they’ve likely been taken over by staff to continue to promote her work). I am guessing the sheer volume of discussion about her upon arrival didn’t feel great, and perhaps she was not expecting that, but I don’t know.
And, sorry, I published my comment on accident then edited it/added to it because I’m doing this on my phone! So there’s more there at the bottom I’m curious about.
And honestly, if nothing else, this was the moment we all realized that notes was ALWAYS SUPPOSED TO BE TWITTER. Fuck meeeee.
Fuck me too, because Twitter was the worst BUT it generated a ton of engagement unlike notes. Is this the worst of both worlds then? Gah
I could never do twitter because it felt like being in a room where everyone was screaming at the same time! So, I don’t know. It all feels pretty bleak rn.
Thank you for writing this! I didn’t know this happened - I just knew that Glennon Doyle joined and left Substack quickly bc she said something like it was bad for her mental health. No wonder! Being mobbed and attacked on the internet would be bad for anyone’s mental health 😟😑
A thoughtful and nuanced take as always. And thanks for admitting your own discomfort - what often gets lost in demands for ideological purity is that we can have and interrogate our own reactions without broadcasting them to the internet. (A 21st Century spin on second thought, first action if you will.)
I only heard about the situation afterwards, but this essay and 15th Century Feminist's note that maybe this will encourage meaningful content moderation from Substack have been the best responses I've seen.
Love this essay. Thank you for the reminder to think critically when these things arise.
This is interesting to think about. I vowed not to read any more about this and then couldn’t resist a Kate Manne take. I saw lots of commentary about what people said to GD, and never saw any of the actual comments. Did they vanish with her? She’s an interesting mirror for our own fears, hopes and longings.
This is so interesting - I follow Glennon’s podcast but didn’t make the jump to her substack (I already have so many things to read). I didn’t know she was experiencing this BS. Thanks for bringing light to it!
Thanks for your excellent take on the Glennon Doyle situation. Having grown up in the progressive Bay Area, I’ve experienced kind and smart people policing others about social norm digressions. I don’t think they are aware of how passive-aggressive they sound. It drives me bananas!
The hate on Glennon Doyle is overkill. Guys like Freddie DeBoer, who I subscribe to, monetize their Substacks immediately. DeBoer faced no opposition, despite having been canceled and despite his pugnacious return to “edgy” commentary. That same privilege should be extended to women. They shouldn’t always have to be kind or sophisticated in order to have an audience.
This is a great article. I have no idea who Glennon is or what had happened until I read your article. Your article gives a needed perspective. Also the article KN posted up there which frames it as a capitalist backlash. It can be misogynistic & a backlash to wealth inequality as well, as a rich man likely would not get the same reaction. Breaking down the disgust reaction is very helpful as well & gives me something to think about.